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Making of an Epic Macintosh SE/30

  1. 2 months ago

    AC Slater

    Jan 9 Administrator
    Edited 6 weeks ago by AC Slater

    I might come up with a better title, but clickbait fake news is hot right now. I have been collecting hardware and accelerators for this machine and I pretty much found and exhausted most options. There is one vague thing in my mind but I would have to search a bit... So now I want to get back to the basics- power. I have been wanting to replace the power supply with something that can deliver more watts to hungry accelerators.

    Stronger Power Supply for the SE/30

    I am starting with this neat little Corsair SF450 (well reviewed here ) power supply. I found it interesting that it is shipped in a velvet pouch like a bottle of Crown Royal. I made a rough harness to wire it in and removed the old PSU. There are a couple things about it that I have found that could be dealbreakers such as no separate 12V rail for sweep and lower spec for -12V.

    SE/30 Stock PSU Specs
    5V 6A
    12V 1.25A
    12V 2.1A (sweep)
    -12V 0.5A

    DSC08032.jpg

    Soft-on connection (alligator clips):

    DSC08033.jpg

    Here's a teaser of a PowerPC accelerator (Daystar Turbo 601 100MHz) with an adapter riser board I use for testing. I did not expect it to run since it was not meant to work on the SE/30, however, it does make the PowerMac startup sound instead of the stock SE/30 sound, so maybe there is hope if a firmware hacker out there is interested in making it work.

    DSC08035.jpg

    Some questions I found some answers to... to be continued.

  2. andyandy

    Jan 10 Moderator

    Is the voltage requirement for Sweep have to do with the monitor? Or is there some kind of weird 12V logic configuration that needs a separate rail ?

    Not familiar with that requirement as I'm one of these guys...

    pcguy.jpg

    The only PC power supplies I know of that advertise separate 12V rails are higher end gaming supplies.

    If you have the space inside the case, you could always put together a DC-DC converter that would give you separate 3 12V rails. One for 12V, one for 12V (sweep) and one with a cheap 7912 to give you -12V.

    A breakout board that accomplishes this may be something other Mac people would be interested in.

  3. AC Slater

    Jan 10 Administrator

    I haven't looked at the analog board schematics, but that's what I have read, is that the sweep voltage is related to the CRT functionality. I think the intent is to make sure the video looks stable.

    lol, that's cool that your a PC guy since those systems have the supplies that would be useful in this scenario with all the interchangeable parts. I think Macs back then were frugal with power. The SE/30 actually uses the same power supply that was designed for the SE, but I imagine that system was less power hungry.

    That's an interesting idea for the case. One of the things I want to ensure is that the supply is efficient to minimize heat added since the add-ons will generate heat. The supply that I am using now never turned on its fan, so I'm thinking if I have a 300W+ supply it will stay fairly cool. I did some current measurements on the -12V rail and it was very low. The system can boot without -12V, but will not make sounds since it is required for that functionality. I think the disk drive also uses -12V.

  4. andyandy

    Jan 11 Moderator

    @AC Slater That's an interesting idea for the case. One of the things I want to ensure is that the supply is efficient to minimize heat added since the add-ons will generate heat. The supply that I am using now never turned on its fan, so I'm thinking if I have a 300W+ supply it will stay fairly cool. I did some current measurements on the -12V rail and it was very low. The system can boot without -12V, but will not make sounds since it is required for that functionality. I think the disk drive also uses -12V.

    Are you talking about heat generated by the power supply or from the add-ons boards?

    How much more power is going to get drawn by the boards? Is it solely going to be on the 5V line or also on 12V? If it's similar to a PC, the needs will be on the 5V line for logic/MOBO stuff.

    The original SE/30 looks to be a 100W power supply running at around 76.2% efficiency give or take.

    5V 30W
    12V 15W
    12V (Sweep) 25.2W
    -12V 6W.

    76.2 Watts

    Sweep voltage requirements should stay the same since it is only for the monitor. Same with -12V if it's just for audio. So the only things that will need to be beefier are the 5V and maybe the 12V (outside of the whole -12V undersupply issue)

    So a 300W PSU would have plenty of juice even at 50-60% load depending on the needs for the 5V line. That nice Corsair you have has a 20A on the 5V.

    High-efficiency power supplies have been around for awhile, though the extra cost does not always correlate to extra electricity savings. It's more of a marketing tool than anything else.

    80plus.jpg

    Most generic supplies have at least a 65%-75% efficiency rating. Unless you are running a bitcoin/rendering/bot farm at 99%+ load 24/hours a day the wattage savings isn't that much. Granted, the builds for a name-brand high-efficiency are probably better than an alibaba front-page special.

    Heat is always going to rise, so it's important to make sure the airflow path on the PSU is not obstructed or getting directed where you don't want it to be. With some Dell models, they add a large air baffle around the CPU to redirect the air directly to the outside of the case since that is the hottest part of the system.

    Depending on the case, sometimes a PSU doesn't want to mount the right way in a case and you have to modify it (change direction of fan, take off frame, cut vent holes etc).

    On PCs -12V is for audio. +12V is for GPU power supply and also disk drive/CD/DVD motors.

  5. AC Slater

    Jan 11 Administrator
    Edited 2 months ago by AC Slater

    @andyandy Are you talking about heat generated by the power supply or from the add-ons boards?

    How much more power is going to get drawn by the boards? Is it solely going to be on the 5V line or also on 12V? If it's similar to a PC, the needs will be on the 5V line for logic/MOBO stuff.

    Heat generated by both. My guess is the extra power draw will be on the 5V line. I don't see why the Motorola 68040 or 68030 accelerators would use 12V. Like you said, hard drives used them also, but I am going with some kind of solid state tech which won't need it. I am not sure if the accelerator companies published specs on their power usage. I guess I could use something like a Kill-a-watt or get a current probe and measure the current going to the entire machine. I think hitting a third of the rated power would be the sweet spot for trading heat and peak efficiency. Most PSUs have a fan and I am not going to add another fan. Some versions of the stock PSU have a bunch of holes for convection and the case fan is above it with a vent going out the back.

    @andyandy Depending on the case, sometimes a PSU doesn't want to mount the right way in a case and you have to modify it (change direction of fan, take off frame, cut vent holes etc).

    Yeah, that's the thing that I think will make it difficult to use the Corsair PSU. I like that it has connectors instead of a cable harness, but the way it would fit in the PSU enclosure would make it impossible to connect to them with a custom cable unless it is hacked up a bit. So I am thinking of getting something like the FSP FSP300-60FAG 300W Flex PSU.

    FSP300-60FAG.jpg

    FSP300-60FAG-specs.jpg

    I am not sure if it really has separate 12V rails, but on paper, it seems to be a good match. It will easily fit the PSU enclosure.

    There is a guy in Japan, who is apparently very socially awkward and still lives with his mom who makes some cool stuff for Macs. He came up with this PSU upgrade , which I read a long time ago has all Rubycon capacitors, but I have barely seen anyone mention the product.

  6. andyandy

    Jan 12 Moderator

    @AC Slater Heat generated by both. My guess is the extra power draw will be on the 5V line. I don't see why the Motorola 68040 or 68030 accelerators would use 12V. Like you said, hard drives used them also, but I am going with some kind of solid state tech which won't need it. I am not sure if the accelerator companies published specs on their power usage. I guess I could use something like a Kill-a-watt or get a current probe and measure the current going to the entire machine. I think hitting a third of the rated power would be the sweet spot for trading heat and peak efficiency. Most PSUs have a fan and I am not going to add another fan. Some versions of the stock PSU have a bunch of holes for convection and the case fan is above it with a vent going out the back.

    Is there clearance for a heatsink on the 68040 when the accelerator card is installed? I'll have to dig through my box of old video cards but I remember seeing a few of them with small fans mounted on the heatsink. If they're the right size I'll rescue them for you.

    Since you're tricking everything out already, if you wouldn't hardwire the heatsinkfan to continuously run, you could add a small temperature controller and thermocouple.

    I am not sure if it really has separate 12V rails, but on paper, it seems to be a good match. It will easily fit the PSU enclosure.

    Looks promising. I would interpret that as having separate 12V rails based on the sticker.

    There is a guy in Japan, who is apparently very socially awkward and still lives with his mom who makes some cool stuff for Macs. He came up with this PSU upgrade , which I read a long time ago has all Rubycon capacitors, but I have barely seen anyone mention the product.

    Yeah that guy is kind of an enigma. Doesn't seem like there isn't anything he can't do. I've seen some of Artmix's SCSI and CF boards and they look awesome.

  7. AC Slater

    Jan 12 Administrator

    @andyandy Is there clearance for a heatsink on the 68040 when the accelerator card is installed? I'll have to dig through my box of old video cards but I remember seeing a few of them with small fans mounted on the heatsink. If they're the right size I'll rescue them for you.

    I am not sure. If I use Artmix's TwinSpark adapter, there is not really any room. The boards I have come with a heatsink though. Thanks for the offer, I'll keep it in mind. I will take some more pics showing that board and showing the current measurement on the -12V rail. I was trying to see if I could measure voltage changes on the 12V line, but I think it's not practical with my oscilloscope since it is 8-bit resolution and on a +/- 20V scale.

    @andyandy Yeah that guy is kind of an enigma. Doesn't seem like there isn't anything he can't do. I've seen some of Artmix's SCSI and CF boards and they look awesome.

    Yeah, he's a pioneer for sure, the CF board is cool. I wonder if he makes music since he is into supporting Akai MPC samplers with SCSI. The SCSI2SD card is sort of becoming a successor, which is designed a bit differently, but the higher performance version that came out last year is almost the same cost as Artmix's board. Since the SCSI2SD is using a microcontroller and code from scratch, it has gone through a ton of revisions and stability fixes. I think it is a shame there is not a very cheap board to make them more accessible since it is a basic need for the systems.

    I forgot to write that I think the Artmix PSU upgrade is using a PC PSU, possibly sourced from Japan. He listed on the case a certification mark (UL APEX), so I do not think he designed it himself.

  8. AC Slater

    Jan 17 Administrator
    Edited 2 months ago by AC Slater

    Here are some shots of the Corsair SF450 PSU on top of the SE/30's PSU for scale. If the connectors were going the other direction, I think I would use this one. Without the fan, the depth should be fine.

    DSC08044.jpg

    DSC08047.jpg

    I also took some measurements on the -12V rail to see how much power is really being drawn. I usually found the max to be around 40mA, so I think a 0.3A rating, which is found on many PSU's is fine.

    DSC08065.jpg

    I also took some shots of the Artmix TwinSpark adapter with the Daystar Turbo 040 and the Asante MacCon ethernet card. I was lucky to find this one slightly used. It is the 2.0 version / blue board. @andyandy the clearance between the heatsink and the CRT is pretty non-existent.

    DSC08049.jpg

    For the testing, I turned the volume all the way up and played some system beeps. I also ran a random floppy I pulled from a lot of disks I recently got, this one was a Hypercard stack demoing some software. Love the 1-bit dither.

    DSC08070.jpg

    Also, @andyandy I was wondering if you might have an idea for this. The Mac IIx has it, which is a bigger version of the SE/30 which has soft-power off. I tried looking at the schematics and only found PWROFF going to a pin on the PDS card slot.

    I am guessing Apple didn't want to reinvent a new PSU for the SE/30 and stuck with the SE PSU. I am wondering if there is another elegant spot (besides the PDS pin page 1 / grid 1-C) I could tap into to use that functionality. A while back I read some discussion about a software hack to enable that pin.

    I compiled schematics from here .

  9. andyandy

    Jan 18 Moderator
    Edited 2 months ago by andyandy

    Cool pics!

    Also, @andyandy I was wondering if you might have an idea for this. The Mac IIx has it, which is a bigger version of the SE/30 which has soft-power off. I tried looking at the schematics and only found PWROFF going to a pin on the PDS card slot.

    I'll have to look at the Mac power supply later tonight to get an idea of the pinout and possibly some good places to sink some hooks in. Is there any other documentation on the PWROFF line requirements?

    EDIT: Did a quick Google search and I found this regarding PWROFF

    "Status signal to inform an expansion card that power will soon be
    removed. (Shutdown has been selected from the Special menu.)
    This signal is common across Macintosh machines without
    physical NuBus."

    So PWROFF is an output line from the logic/motherboard? Maybe there is another line

    With the ATX power supplies, like the Corsair one you have, you can play with a few of the lines to power on/power off the PSU. The power supply turns on when the PS_ON (green wire) gets pulled to ground (usually through a switch/button on the case.) There is also a 5VDC Standby (purple wire) voltage that powers the motherboard (The can also be controlled with the same switch/button on case depending on the motherboard) . This voltage line is always on when the power supply is on and is independent of the other 5V.

    Perhaps if there is a shutdown signal that comes from the logic/motherboard you could add a flip-flop or some other logic to toggle the power supply to interrupt power to shut down but be ready to go when the power button was pushed.

    connector_atx_pinout.GIF

  10. AC Slater

    Jan 18 Administrator
    Edited 2 months ago by AC Slater

    Awesome, having another pair of eyes would be great, thanks. There's some good info there, thanks for the link. One thing I am wondering is if there should be a delay to turn-off the machine when PWROFF is toggled.

    @andyandy So PWROFF is an output line from the logic/motherboard? Maybe there is another line

    Yeah, from the VIA2 chip, pin 13. (page 4 of the schematics)

    The power-on circuits for other machines is handled via the ADB port (there is a power switch on the keyboard). That's another piece of the puzzle. Ideally I could have something tap into these two signals without having to solder wires to the board and also have it fully internal to the machine. But I checked the schematic, and it looks like pin 2 may be NC. I am surprised they didn't put some provision in just in case.

    ADB_Pinout.png

    Source: http://whitefiles.org/b1_s/1_free_guides/fg1mt/pgs/h10b.htm

  11. andyandy

    Jan 19 Moderator

    @AC Slater Awesome, having another pair of eyes would be great, thanks. There's some good info there, thanks for the link. One thing I am wondering is if there should be a delay to turn-off the machine when PWROFF is toggled.

    A delay would makes sense to allow the hardware to unmount/park.

    The power-on circuits for other machines is handled via the ADB port (there is a power switch on the keyboard). That's another piece of the puzzle. Ideally I could have something tap into these two signals without having to solder wires to the board and also have it fully internal to the machine. But I checked the schematic, and it looks like pin 2 may be NC. I am surprised they didn't put some provision in just in case.

    Would you able able to clone the ADP shutdown circuit from a Mac that has one? Then you just have to find the right points to connect everything -- the rest would be software changes.

    If all the points that you need to reach are on the PDS bus, maybe you just need to make a passthrough/extender PDS board that lets you tap into the bus. For PCI slots on PCs they make these extender cables s-l1600.jpg

    The PDS has square pins so it would be much easier to fab a small form factor board without worry about the edge connector.

  12. AC Slater

    Jan 19 Administrator
    Edited 2 months ago by AC Slater

    @andyandy Would you able able to clone the ADP shutdown circuit from a Mac that has one? Then you just have to find the right points to connect everything -- the rest would be software changes.

    The ADB part is for turning on the SE/30 with the keyboard. I think it can also turn off Macs that are made to use that signal, by putting up a prompt in the OS asking if you want to shut down or restart. The problem is the power on key pin for the SE/30 looks like it goes nowhere at all. So to get access, I'd have to kludge some wiring on the bottom of the board. I just checked and there is no access on the top of the board to kip onto. Hmm...

    @andyandy The PDS has square pins so it would be much easier to fab a small form factor board without worry about the edge connector.

    Yeah, the pin spacing is prototype friendly.

    PDS-connector.png

    A ribbon cable like that would be really cool for doing weird configurations. Do you have an idea on how a board could break out the PDS slot into multiple ones? The Mac IIsi has an almost identical PDS slot. I have seen simple IIsi boards that will multiply the slot (at a right angle, since it's a pizza box like an LC), but I wasn't sure how it is done, like if you can just parallel all the pins together. Some SE/30 boards pass-through the PDS as well. Can't find a good pick of a passive adapter at the moment.

  13. andyandy

    Jan 20 Moderator

    @AC Slater The ADB part is for turning on the SE/30 with the keyboard. I think it can also turn off Macs that are made to use that signal, by putting up a prompt in the OS asking if you want to shut down or restart. The problem is the power on key pin for the SE/30 looks like it goes nowhere at all. So to get access, I'd have to kludge some wiring on the bottom of the board. I just checked and there is no access on the top of the board to kip onto. Hmm...

    That sucks if you have to modify the board especially from the bottom since they are a PITA the get out.

    A ribbon cable like that would be really cool for doing weird configurations. Do you have an idea on how a board could break out the PDS slot into multiple ones? The Mac IIsi has an almost identical PDS slot. I have seen simple IIsi boards that will multiply the slot (at a right angle, since it's a pizza box like an LC), but I wasn't sure how it is done, like if you can just parallel all the pins together. Some SE/30 boards pass-through the PDS as well. Can't find a good pick of a passive adapter at the moment.

    I've been looking for pics of passive adapters too and I haven't found any.

    Here's one for a vintage computer that may give some inspiration

    Extender Board.jpg

    This one below was made for a Korg PS3100 Synthesizer

    ps3100.jpg

    You should be able to put the pins in parallel, the only limitation is how/if the motherboard BIOS/ROM addresses/limits the extra slots. May need some caps on the power lines to keep the noise down but for the most part they are just an extension

  14. 8 weeks ago

    AC Slater

    Jan 22 Administrator
    Edited 8 weeks ago by AC Slater

    Cool, thanks for the inspiration! I think accelerator boards use some ROM or glue or PAL or something to be able to take over from the host CPU. It would be cool to know how it is done. The other types of cards sometimes have jumpers to specify what slot/address they are on. For a dummy extender, I think I have one somewhere that doubles up a IIsi PDS slot. I have been going through my stuff recently, trying to get everything more organized, but haven't seen it yet.

    One thing I ran across is the SE/30 posted above, that used to be at a hospital, was pretty clean inside, but the capacitors were leaking a little and there were some early signs that the board was affected, so I cleaned it up and replaced all the cans and axial caps. It has been raining a lot so I did a final rinse in the rain and it now looks super clean.

    Here's the board after removal and cleaning.

    DSC08076.jpg

    Old components removed with hot air.

    DSC08092.jpg

    I also did some tests with a Lapis ProColorServer PDS video card for attaching an external monitor. The board is a really cool shade of blue.

    DSC08081.jpg

  15. 6 weeks ago

    AC Slater

    Feb 3 Administrator
    Edited 6 weeks ago by AC Slater

    A new power supply arrived and the size looks more manageable. It is a 250W FSP Flex PSU. I am thinking I will remove the fan, but it seems wrong to just cut it off. There is a little board with a temp sensor going to what looks like a transformer.

    DSC08098.jpg

    DSC08097.jpg

    DSC08116.jpg

    Here's a photo of the Y-Cap ceramic filters on the FSP supply that I will replace on an original FPU.
    DSC08125.jpg

  16. andyandy

    Feb 4 Moderator
    Edited 6 weeks ago by andyandy

    @AC Slater A new power supply arrived and the size looks more manageable. It is a 250W FSP Flex PSU. I am thinking I will remove the fan, but it seems wrong to just cut it off. There is a little board with a temp sensor going to what looks like a transformer.

    Awesome! Amazing how much more compact the newer supply is.

    You could always add a small toggle switch to turn on/off the fan power.

    That Lapis expansion board is really cool. There are so many strange and wonderful Mac expansion cards!

  17. AC Slater

    Feb 5 Administrator

    Yeah, the small size makes me wonder what is missing there. I am running into an issue using it though. I am finding that if I plug in an accelerator board with the adapter, it won't boot at all. And if I swap back to an original supply, it works ok. However, I still don't have 12V on the different rails since I am still using the unmodified ATX plug, and maybe the lack of ground to the chassis is causing a subtle power issue. I checked voltages, and they look fine. I am going to try addressing those two things first.

  18. andyandy

    Feb 5 Moderator

    You wouldn't happen to have a spec sheet for the Lapis board would you?

    Curious to what the power requirements are since there a lot of ICs on there.

    You could check the voltage on some of those tantalums just to confirm that the voltage isn't getting pulled too low. Seems strange since the ATX PSU should be beefy enough to handle several SE/30s at once

    Just to confirm you using the 5VDC line to power the Mac and not the 5VSB line?

  19. AC Slater

    Feb 5 Administrator
    Edited 6 weeks ago by AC Slater

    Yeah, I'm not using 5VSB. After doing some more checking, I think I narrowed down the issue to a somewhat flaky connection with my logic board extension harness. I guess whatever lines are powering the accelerators (going to the PDS) were the culprit and were confusing me since I had no issues without PDS cards. Also adding to the confusion, it seemed like the Daystar PowerCache with the 33MHz SMD chips was a little more sensitive to the issue.

    I am not sure if there is a spec sheet for the Lapis, but when reading through the Apple doc you posted earlier, there was some good info to get an idea on the extra loading by the cards.

    The IIci cache slot is relevant here since the DayStar cards are pretty much all designed for the IIci and then use adapter boards for other machines. It also gives a ballpark for what an accelerator board in general could draw.

    pasted_image.png

    Here are the power limits for the SE/30 PDS bus. I am guessing they figure only one card would be installed on the slot.

    pasted_image.png

    The Macintosh SE/30 uses the same power supply as the Macintosh SE. Therefore, the same power consumption guidelines should be followed. The Macintosh SE power budget is described in Chapter 13 in the section "Macintosh SE Power Budget." The Macintosh SE/30 main logic board consumes more power than the Macintosh SE main logic board, but if you adhere to the following guidelines, there is still enough power supply margin to ensure reliability.

    I'll post some more pics later today.

  20. AC Slater

    Feb 6 Administrator
    Edited 5 weeks ago by AC Slater

    My test mule is a DayStar TurboCache 68030 33MHz card. It did not come with an FPU, so I just got one in, a 40MHz one. The card is a bit of a clunker since it is not practically upgradable with a socketed CPU (and is a bit slow), so it's not part of what I would put in an epic SE/30, but I still like the board for some reason. It has a certain utilitarian quality to it.

    DayStar_PowerCache_030_FPU.jpg

    I have heard many reports of fake chips, so I was a little wary, but got this one and popped it in. The silksrceen looks a little light, but it does work and seems fairly cool to the touch.


    Motorola_68882_FPU_40MHz.jpg

    I ran some tests with the DayStar software intended to show off the improved performance. No glitches or crashes happened, so I guess the chip is legit.

    DayStar_benchmark_software.jpg

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